John Moffat – This is Ulverston

Getting your Trinity Audio player ready...

TIU: Hi John! Welcome to This is Ulverston. How did you come to be here in the town?

J : So in very simple terms, I moved up to the lakes in the summer of 2003 to work for the National Trust. I did just over 20 years with them finishing at the end of 2023. I burnt out, basically and took quite a few months to recover.

TIU: So you were in a senior management position?

J : Yeah, I was a general manager looking after a lot of the Beatrix Potter legacy. For a very long time. Went through numerous restructures, went through COVID and everything else, and eventually it overcame me. So I finished with the trust and then in very simple terms, I was looking for a new job. I saw this one being advertised and there’s some definite similarities with what I was doing, but new organisation, new place, and Swarthmoor wasn’t open at the time when they were looking for the new person. So I thought, well, that’s actually quite an interesting thing to get somewhere going again, because obviously National Trust has been around forever and people know of it. Firstly, it looked interesting and challenging and I thought, I’ll give it a go and see what happens and then got it. So that was March, April, last year and I started at the end of April 2024.

TIU : Do you have qualifications in management as well?

J: Through working. So I’ve done things as I’ve come along. A long time ago now I studied history. So that was my degree. And alongside history, I was very active in scouting. From a very, very young age. And that actually took me to Switzerland for 10 years before I moved up to the lakes. My parents are both from Cumbria. So it’s all sort of a big circle.

TIU : I have to ask you because it’s obviously steeped in Quaker history, if you are a Quaker yourself?

J: No, no, not personally. You don’t have to be a Quaker to work here. You do have to have sympathy and understanding and be prepared to learn about it. So I’ve been doing a lot of that over the last year. And actually for Quakers in Britain, there are some roles where you do have to be a Quaker to take on those roles, but well, 95% probably the jobs that we have can be done by anybody. There are lots of Quakers working, particularly on the charity, the religious side, if you like of it.

TIU : Right, so where you would be required to have the Quaker belief.

J: Yes and also a deep understanding of the organisation, how it works.

TIU: So are there many Quakers in Ulverston?

J: There is still a local meeting, yeah. So the local meeting house is about five minutes down the road. They’re still an active community. They meet twice a week for worship. They’re involved in a variety of different things. There are very few large Quaker communities now. So across the country as a whole, it’s not hundreds of thousands of members or anything like that. Most of the communities are tens of members.

TIU : And are you able to join in those meetings if you want to?

J: Absolutely. Yeah, they’re open to anybody. In terms of working, we host one meeting for worship a month here at the Hall. Which I believe is a very conscious decision, not to take away from the local meeting. Because the core of Quakers as a faith as in an organisation is that local level group of friends.

TIU: What are your major plans for the site? You’ve obviously got the gift shop a little cafe and the accommodation…

J: Like everybody, Swarthmoor Hall closed for COVID in March 2020. And then for a variety of reasons, mainly around building works and costs and delays, they were a long way behind on a major project that they wanted to do. So the first thing I had to do was come in and actually get that project finished. There was a lot of internal work. Most people won’t even notice the conservation work, particularly in one of the rooms upstairs. With a building that was from the 1580s as they got into it, the main joist needed replacing. So and then everything had to go. We had to get the project finished to allow us then to open. That in itself was quite a task because it was well over four years and really nobody here now had been involved in opening it before in a way. So we got through the end of 2024 and then we said, this year is our baseline year. So this is all about really understanding a 12 month cycle. So we reopened again late March in terms of the hall. We did keep the cafe and gardens going last year and it worked all right during the winter. So we kept that going this year as well.

TIU :I think you’ve got as long as you’ve got a cafe, you have some sort of destination. If you’ve got a toilet and a cafe and well appointed situation with the garden and everything you’ll always have a steady stream of people. It’s dog friendly too which helps. Are you going to add anything else onto the site?

J: Not at a moment. So the plans at the moment are really to try and make more use of what we’ve got. So occupants in the accommodation could be a lot higher and in some ways that’s our quickest, easiest win because the accommodation’s all here. It’s in good condition because it wasn’t used for four years. So actually we just need more people to know that we’re here and start staying. But we were effectively out of the lakes tourism economy for four and a half years. So that’s a very long time to be out, to be trying to get back into it. In every aspect of what we do actually. So the accommodation, we’ve done really well getting the groups using the conference space. So we’ve got mum’s groups, pilates, groups, life drawing, photography, as well as sort of more commercial uses – so meetings and training, that sort of thing.

TIU: That’s for hire?

J: Yeah, we do have some limitations. We follow the same lettings policy as our team and friends’s house down in London. So there are certain organisations, if they clash with our values then we wouldn’t be able to hire it out. So again, we want to get more people using that more often. And in terms of the sort of visitor side of the business, we’re getting back into that whole – we’re here again after five years, which is a long time and the Cumbrian visitor economy is very different now to where it was in late 2019, for example, before COVID hit. Numbers are different the demographics are different. The segmentation of people is different. The people here are doing different things as well.

TIU: Have you got a team that’s been here for a long time?

J: Half the team have joined since we reopened. We’ve got a couple who were here before COVID but it’s a mixed team now.

TIU: So you do have a kind of continuation from the history from before.

J: There’s a bit of knowledge and things, yes.

TIU: So what are the future plans?

J: Well, a big thing for next year is we’re going to move from three to four day opening. At the moment its only Wednesday to Friday. We’re going to go Wednesday to Saturday. We’re going to do it in a very measured considered approach. Everything tells us that will work. But we just need to be sure it’ll work where we have to do it in reality.

TIU: I saw this morning your Instagram post about the sausage rolls. I don’t have a lot of social media, which is purposeful, but I happened to see that. Who does your media?

J: We have a lady called Emma and that’s one of the changes. She’s only been in the post two months now. We want to take a lot of the social and digital media and actually manage it from here. It’s been managed by a team in London for us. Which has been all right, but they also have the whole London place to look after, which is far bigger and brings far more money and things as well. So inevitably we were a little bit lower down the priority list. It means we can take the photos every day, post every day. Build up that local buzz. I mean, yes, we want tourists and visitors, but I think if we’re to be successful Ulverston needs to feel that Swarthmoor is part of the town again.

TIU: It’s not far at all. You can walk here from the town centre within 20 minutes. And 15 from the railway. Along the side of the schools from Springfield Road...

J: We had quite an active schools programme and that obviously stopped. So for next September, next year, I’d like to have a schools programme back in place for primary school secondary school year groups. That would be fantastic. In 15 years, every single child will have been here twice. And then parents will come along. One of the things we’ll bring you next year is a bit of an events programme to start to give some days and reasons to visit, not just the biggest pull at the moment which is the cafe. It’s coming to have coffee and cake and a beautiful place.

TIU : Would you put it in a playground for children?

J: Probably not a formal playground, but there’s certainly things we can do, not so much with the garden space, but once we get into the meadow space beyond. In terms of what I would call wild play. Not putting in swings and seesaws. But actually giving people, giving kids a chance to build shelters perhaps or discover nature. One of the groups this morning was a Nature Makers group. It’s aimed at preschool age in term time. In the school holidays she does school children age activities as well.

TIU: I love to see this being done. I am sure there are a lot of people in the 50s and 60s generation that come and walk…

J: That’s our classic demographic for the whole. That’s absolutely fine and we’re part of the Historic Houses Association, which should definitely brings lots of people in because they’ve got their membership. But a lot of the work with the accommodation – that’s a real mix. We do have quite a lot of international visitors. It’s mainly UK domestic but we have a growing number of Ulverston people. This weekend just gone we had a lady in the accomadation who was visiting her brother and his family. They both agreed she didn’t want to stay with him for five days so she stayed here and they did things every evening, but she had her own space.

TIU: I get quite a lot of international friends staying over so we will keep it in mind!

J: We do have quite a few Quaker bookings. For committees and various things happening.

TIU: So in terms of Quaker history…?

J: It’s very much about using what we have and let’s say we’re going to be doing a lot more marketing next year. We’ll have a proper leaflet out on TIC racks and that sort of thing. But it’s really that we’ve got this wonderful place. It is a genuinely wonderful place and there’s something about the location, the peacefulness. So you’re only five minutes off the 590, but it feels like you’re in the countryside. It’s a 15 minute walk from the train station. So all of those sorts of things and trying new things. Tomorrow we’ve got co op funeral care coming up. We’ve made an agreement with them because apparently more and more people are wanting to have services, not in a church because most people don’t go to church now. Not in a crematorium because they’re just horrible. And they want a lovely place. So next week we’ve got the first funeral service to be held here as well for a local lady and family. We are trying to find things that we think are appropriate for the place. A key part is very much the Quaker history. This is where the Quake movement started. And it’s not an exaggeration to say that. Because if George Fox hadn’t met Margaret Fell and her family in spring 1652, everything I’ve read and talking to Quakers say, he would probably have disappeared, like all the other people of the time who were challenging authority. It was civil war, King had been executed by Parliament. It’s hard to imagine how up in the air it must have been. And there were hundreds, if not thousands of individuals and small groups challenging, questioning things. Most of whom have disappeared without trace now. But what happened here in that room led to it. And 373 years on, we’re still around. Without the Quakers, the building would still have been here. The building preceded George Fox and the start of the Quaker movement. The Fell family, who are a local wealthy landowner, decided to build a hall. Ultimately aimed for the son, Thomas to be his home when he married. So 1580s, 1590s, construction date.

TIU: I didn’t know much of the history until the open day so I took the leaflet that you had at the time. It’s great that you have original features and furnitures here too…

J: Virtually every room has something which is original and of importance. Most of furniture was brought in in the late 1900s when the decision was made to really show the hall to visitors. Most of it’s period furniture – it was a Quaker guy, actually, Roger Warner, who was one of the leading authorities on furniture. And apparently he went around the country sourcing tables and chairs and chest of drawers, all the things. Some of it was bought, some of it was gifted by individuals or by local meetings as well, apparently around the country. So there’s a lot, and then upstairs on the top floor at the moment, we still have building problems to fix.

TIU: Are you going to be opening the entire building?

J: Yes. When we were finishing off the building works in internally last year, we found some external problems that were basically causing leaks. So we’ve got to fix the external problems, which will hopefully get done in spring. The building will need a bit of time, just to dry out properly for that. Then we can finish off the internal works. The big attic room at the front will become part of the visitor route and experience. The room at the back will become our collection store and conservation workshop space.

TIU: You had some voluntary guides, I think?

J: We’re going to be doing a bit of a campaign over the winter to get more volunteers involved. That’s in everywhere, not just the hall. At the moment we’ve got two. Most weeks we have somebody on Thursday and Friday and ideally we’d like to have a volunteer in every day that we’re open. They’re there for general conversations and questions, but they also do quick taster tours. And if we have organised groups, then we’ll do more more in depth guided tours for groups as well. The gardens we’re keeping open now, just on a donations basis. Because we just think they’re lovely and it’s like the outdoor space is fresh and nice, but there’s not a lot of colour. So rather than charging people, we’d rather people went in all the time and if they want to make a donation they can. The reality is most people have been to the cafe and bought something there with us as well.

TIU : Do you think it was chosen for the view specifically because it has one of those amazing views at the back…

J: Possibly. And I would imagine good farmland. All the fields around are still owned by the Quakers. It was built facing northwards, because that was town and that’s where people would have come up from. And they later on re-aligned to face southwards for the sun. Thomas married Margaret Askew, she was from just down the road. Had the family, did very well in that eight children survived. And I think they only lost two. A very, very good ratio for the times. It would have been one of those normal stories, if you like, which is like so many around England of the wealthy family home. They may have kept it and it may have got sold off, whatever we don’t know. Then 1652, George Fox arrives. Meets Margaret and the family, the daughters, particularly not the son – one son. I think people underestimate the role that Thomas played in those first few years, protecting them. It must have been an interesting dynamic in that he was there to expect to uphold the law and what they were doing was illegal. He must have had respect for George Fox. Otherwise, I don’t think he’d have allowed him to stay and host meetings. For the first 40 -50 years Swarthmoor was the hub of it. George and Margaret married. George died first Margaret died early in the 1700s and the estate stayed in the family for another 50 years. Then another classic story. One of the heirs went bankrupt! And it was sold off to pay all the creditors. Then the early 1900s Emma Clark Abraham, who’s a direct descendant in of Margaret, bought, as far as we know, most of what had been original Swarthmoor estate. And I think it’s fair to say she saved the hall. By all accounts, it was in a real state of disrepair and ruin. It had been used as a farmhouse. Emma bought it, did a lot of work. The ground floor, if you remember, the paneling in there all looks quite new. The stairs that’s all the original stairs. There’s a very distinct difference between the two floors. Then she bequeathed it to her family and then in the 50s it came to the Quakers. Originally, like the manager or whatever lived in the hall as well and where the new build is there was a huge bank barn, massive, massive barn. And in even poorer condition. So eventually that fell into disrepair So, yeah, that’s how we’ve got to where we are now.

TIU: It sounds like you’re the right kind of person to take it forward as well.

J: Hopefully! Cumbria and the Lakes are known worldwide. This is a place of international significance and that’s one of the things we’re going to be working hard to help people understand. What it led to. World Heritage sites – Hadrian’s Wall, oh, yes, absolutely Beatrix Potter, Wordsworth, generally had a worldwide impact, but so did this place.

TIU: As a Quaker community are you able to push your own seasonal things, your own seasonal festivities?

J: We are literally at the moment just asking those questions. Quakers don’t particularly do Christmas and Easter. They don’t make a big fuss of those events. Quaker Christmas is very simple. Very simple. And it goes back to that central core belief that anybody can have a personal relationship with God. That’s a fundamental belief. And you don’t need a church and a priest and silver goblets and incense. You think about how much goes into all those things. So that’s, I think, why they don’t celebrate. So that’s one side of what we do. The flip side is actually we want to find ways to bring more people here to enjoy it and learn about it. And a part of our role is to help people. In a lot of cases, most people are hearing the word Quaker for the first time. Last year we did an art fair and we called it the Winter Art Fair. So it might be we start with winter activities. In the half term week, all of our partners did various Halloween activities. And that was fine. They’re happy to do that. So Easter. Easter is harder to find an alternative word. So I guess you could find us next year doing Easter Egg trails. We may be doing spring festival or something like this.

TIU: But it has to all go through the head office?

J: To a degree. Yeah, we need to respect and understand that. There are certain things that we wouldn’t do. We don’t sell alcohol on the site but if people in the accommodation bring it, we’re okay with that. That’s their their personal choice, for example. No on site bars. The refreshments we do are non alcohol. And actually, most people don’t even notice. With the Quakers, they weren’t about big lavish celebrations.

TIU: In this day and age, people love a big lavish celebration and they love consumerism and it’s going directly against that. So I see that it’s hard. With the gift shop, do you have to vet everything that you’re selling?

J: We have to look at everything. I don’t have to run it by the team in London or anything like that. This is the least used bit, to be honest with the business at the moment. The shop. That’s partly because we’ve been promoting the accommodation and the conference rooms. At Christmas, for example, we do decorated trees in the accommodation. But we’re not going to start decorating the whole site. Simplicity and equality are two of the values, we have to recognise that. We’re going for a good standard of accommodation as well. We’re not going to be installing Alexa in every unit.

TIU: Never had one, never will! I don’t even have a microwave! I have to say that I’m aligned with the Quaker view of simplicity and having a direct link to the Universe without going to a middleman. I definitely dig that. I think the conflict lies with the next generations. They can’t grow up technically defunct but they also need awareness and compassion, gratitude. It’s all so dissociative and throwaway. Schools can only do so much it has to be fostered from home.

J: We’re just exploring renewable energy opportunities here. The roof, for example, faces the perfect direction for solar panels. We are starting to look at how we can reduce our impact. We can do a couple of art fairs next year. We’ll do a spring one and a winter one. We’re going to do a couple of antiques fairs as well. And then we’d like to have something every month which is sort of a not a one-off because ideally we’d have three or four things that we do a couple of times each year. One of our staff looks after our bees. One o’clock every day and our beekeeper will do a little talk. That kind of thing. Or to start to build up contacts with with other locals. Say on Thursdays, there’s an hour of craft activities in the garden, those sorts of things. So they’ll attract different audiences. Different times. We do our events on a Sunday when we wouldn’t normally be open. Ultimately we have to break even because at the moment we’re significantly subsidised from London.

TIU: I would love to see different events coming out. I look forward to a lot of the festivals in town but perhaps it’s time to shake it up.

J: I like Dickensian. We come to most years, but now I can almost walk around and tell you what’s going to be where. I kind of just want things in different places.

TIU: It’s nice that familiarity, you know, I get that. But I also get innovation, expansion.

J: I was at a meeting with Ewan from Muncaster a couple of weeks ago and it was a Historic House AGM actually, the company meeting. And without exception people were saying that the basic offer is still struggling that the numbers just aren’t back to pre-COVID. Outdoor numbers are and possibly higher, but not the indoor numbers for various reasons but what is going is events so the Muncaster trains from Manchester and Carlisle for example.

TIU: I went on that this year. I haven’t been to the castle since I was a child so I got to see it with fresh eyes. I really love what is happening there it’s making the place fun and interesting and yet never straying from the origin.

J: For us it is about letting people know Swarthmoor Hall is here because genuinely it’s a lovely place to come and in this day and age people need quiet spaces where they can reflect and have time whether they’re alone or with family or friends.

TIU: The mindfulness route seems like an obvious choice…

J: We’ve had some people running courses and things here. We’ve got a sound bath this Sunday. We’d like to be able to do more things ourselves, but we just don’t have the staff or volunteers. The approach is let’s work with loads and loads of different partners. We have a lovely venue, great parking. Great access generally. Cafe, toilets, everything you need, so that the canvas, if you like, is here. Whether it be mum’s and baby massage or nature makers like today or this weekend, we’ve got a religious lay community group coming up from Kent and they’ve got the whole site and they’re doing a spiritual retreat. The big challenge we have at the moment is we can’t do catering. So we’ve started to get in touch with outside caterers.

TIU: If you could create a regular event that is defined by this place, then you become more of a part of the town.

J: Yeah, and that’s really important for us because that will be the people who come back weekly. We have a guy who comes at least two of the three days we open on his daily cycle.

TIU: I guess it’s a bit like the droving or the torchlight. Synonymous to the place. I would easily get carried away with inappropriate ideas…

J: Yeah, and we do. I’m constantly flowing and I sometimes have to remind people great idea, but actually Quakers don’t do Christmas. The big thing at every place the moment is winter light trails. You can spend an awful lot of money on winter light trails or you can look to do something simpler, maybe with a local school, for example.

TIU: I look forward to seeing it!

Well, you’re already keeping in touch with what we do, so that’s good. We do have a newsletter as well. If you go online, you can sign up to get the newsletter. We have got a couple of other rooms, which are part of the accommodation, that we can also use for smaller groups. I’m very happy to do all sorts of things.

You can find the Swarthmoor Hall website here. The Historic House is currently closed for Winter but the Café, Shop and Gardens are open Wednesday to Friday, 10.30 am – 3pm.